Urge to work on my custom language again rising (fuck me I hate C++).

@sheredom The evil voice in the back of my brain keeps saying the same thing. I've ignored it so far. Today on twitter RYG posted this:

@mbr yeah I know right? Fabian has a way of leading the mind astray into 'Oh that looks fun!' territories! I once talked to him for 2 hours at GDC about how RAD tested all the weird devices they supported, came home with grandiose notions to write my own Jenkins :D

@sheredom My crazy lang ideas are stuff everyone would hate. When C++ was becoming a thing people were saying: "the problem with scheme-like and forth-like languages is you can extend the language to solve specific problem domains." Me: That's the only thing about these languages that doesn't suck.

@mbr aw man you should talk to Timothy Lottes sometime - he believes Forth is the only correct language beyond directly coding asm :D

@sheredom It really was an excellent language. The version I worked with only had ~6-12 defined words and everything was built from those (as you wished)..ya supporting comments and all the well know forth commands. And with shadertoy-ish speed feedback for programming.

@mbr oh and tangentially - why did you have to share that Ryg Combining Analyses Combining Optimizations paper! All I've been thinking about since reading it last night was how much faster LLVM could be if we replaced the various opt passes with a single pass like that :D

@sheredom For what it's Wirth (ha, I slay me). I think Oberon 2 does something like this. And Self through Java's C2 compiler and to the experimental graal compiler seem based on this. (half guessing from Click's work + this mile high overview:

@mbr Oberon sheesh - its been 6 years since I last touched that. Our (Codeplay) homegrown C/C++ compiler is written in Oberon - but its fallen to the wayside with the rise of Clang now!

@sheredom To any one looking for an alternative to c++ Have a look at jai: a data oriented friendly language from _AT_Jonathan_Blow on twitter.

@oeildelance yeah I've followed Jai since the start - some great ideas / some crap ones. I guess my main urge is that I've once again got that itch of 'I can do something better than anyone!' <- of course I can't, but I'm gonna try once more :D

@sheredom Can you detail the crap ones ? I can't find too many right now. And the more I look into it the more I realize I don't know data oriented programming.

@oeildelance @sheredom
I keep stumbling into info about Jai but no compiler. Was a compiler ever published?

@sheredom @oeildelance thanks. Any idea why? Does he plan to sell the compiler for Jai, or something?

@doppioslash @sheredom No jai is still in a prototype phase and right now it only has a non-published transpiler to c++ but no compiler.

@oeildelance @sheredom
Right, thanks.
Funny, usually people do it the other way around. First they make a language available, and then they document it.
It's hard to judge a language you can't use.

@doppioslash @sheredom You can already judge by hours of live coding videos published on his youtube channel. However that's too time consuming. Documentation will rapidly become available when features have stabilised though.

@oeildelance @sheredom
Watching someone else code is not the same as coding yourself. A live coding video stream is still a controlled environment, where problems are less likely to become apparent.
So, personally, I wouldn't be happy to judge a language just from watching people code in it.

@doppioslash @sheredom I agree. I personally project myself in that language through the videos because it solves many problems I am encountering everyday. However some things I am not quite sure yet.

@oeildelance @sheredom @doppioslash
There are quite a lot of things which deviate from the norm in Jai (like 1-based array indexing!😐), so we'll see how it goes. But it has quite a few features I'd pay a LOT of money to have in C++. Apparently they're stabilizing the compiler now, so hopefully we'll be able to try a beta version in a few months

@jon_valdes @doppioslash @sheredom @oeildelance I've been following from the beginning as well. I feel like clarifying some points (though I don't have access to the language, so I might be wrong). The arrays are 0 indexed. The compiler has different backend: transpiler is the oldest and less supported one. At the moment there are 2 backends mostly used by Jon are: custom made x80-86 code generator and LLVM based backend (the first one is faster, the second one generates debug info)

@oeildelance @sheredom @doppioslash @jon_valdes also, the primer is not up to date. Some features like SOA AOS are deprecated. There are other things I don't like (implicit context struct passed in every function call). About the codebase not being public, JBlow said few times it doesn't like how some FOSS projects progress after they are open. It plans to define a "good" first version of the language and ship it for free with Sokoban, a game/game engine written in Jai

@oeildelance @sheredom @doppioslash @jon_valdes in a relatively recent stream someone asked him if it was. The answer was something along the line of: "it has been deprecated because there are some better features available at the moment". Not sure if he was referring about some of the compile-time AST callback system

@oeildelance @jon_valdes @doppioslash @sheredom it could have been. There are a bunch of stuff, especially if one only watched the first "Compiler demos" videos, that are no longer in the language. There are a lot of other videos about sokoban and compiler dev where it talks about them, but they are quite a few and quite long. Hard to catchup

@sheredom @doppioslash @jon_valdes @oeildelance I was up to date until a couple of days ago, but JBlow has been streaming 5 more sessions since then and I still have to watch those :)

@oeildelance @jon_valdes @doppioslash @sheredom last toot and I'll quit the spam. Another brand new (and somewhat similar, at least in syntax) is Odin. GingerBill is the author. This language is open sourced already and available to try (

@doppioslash @oeildelance @jon_valdes @sheredom I have abd didn't like it. I love cargo and wish C++ had something similar. The language is verbose if you are trying to do "unsecure" things. Working on low level stuff I prefer the ability to shot both my feet over the extra-verbosity to get around the language to be able to shot my feet

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@spanzeri @sheredom @doppioslash @oeildelance
It's difficult to see in his latest videos if that's still in the language. He uses a lot of foreach-style loops with arrays, so he doesn't use much manual indexing 🤷

@sheredom hahaha! we can do it! let's try to beat jai to market ;)

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