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Terence EdenThis is the message you get when you apply to Microsoft's <a href="https://mastodon.social/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> service.Really doesn't feel professional.

Erik van StratenChatControl@Geïnteresseerden, ik heb mijn reactie [1] op de kabinetsbrief [2][3] van Bert Hubert, voorzien van verdere toelichichting, gepubliceerd in <a href="https://www.security.nl/posting/858499/Chatcontrol+brief+Bert+Hubert" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://www.security.nl/posting/858499/Chatcontrol+brief+Bert+Hubert</a>.[1] <a href="https://infosec.exchange/@ErikvanStraten/113154997114450971" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://infosec.exchange/@ErikvanStraten/113154997114450971</a> [2] <a href="https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/brief-csam/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/brief-csam/</a> [3] bron: <a href="https://mastodon.nl/@bert_hubert/113154436966467216" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://mastodon.nl/@bert_hubert/113154436966467216</a><a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSS</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatControl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ChatControl</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSAM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSAM</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/EC" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#EC</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/EU" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#EU</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/BigTech" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#BigTech</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/KinderPorno" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#KinderPorno</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/KinderMisbruik" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#KinderMisbruik</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ClientSideScanning" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ClientSideScanning</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Detectie" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Detectie</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ValsPositieven" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ValsPositieven</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ValsNegatieven" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ValsNegatieven</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/PerceptualHashes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PerceptualHashes</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CosineTransform" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CosineTransform</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ImageRecognition" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ImageRecognition</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/FuzzyHashes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#FuzzyHashes</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/HammingDistance" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#HammingDistance</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatApps" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ChatApps</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Surveillance" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Surveillance</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/OverheidsSurveillance" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#OverheidsSurveillance</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Proportionaliteit" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Proportionaliteit</a>

Erik van Straten<a href="https://mastodon.nl/@bert_hubert" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@bert_hubert</a> , wat zo snel in mij opkomt naast de punten in jouw brief:1) Door te scannen op KCSAM (*) zal geen enkel kind uit de klauwen van misbruikers worden gered.2) Je spoort er hooguit kijkers en delers van KCSAM mee op.3) Hoe verwerpelijk ook kijkers en delers zijn, verreweg de meesten daarvan misbruiken zelf geen kinderen (net zoals niet elke harde pornokijker een verkrachter wordt, en niet elke geweldfilmkijker of shooting-gamer een moordenaar).4) Hoe gaan we die opgepakte mensen "genezen" en wie gaat dat doen? Moeten ze de cel in, en zo ja, hebben we die (en het bijbehorende personeel)?5) Hoe groot is de kans op recidivisme of daadwerkelijk kindermisbruik als "gepakten" niets meer te verliezen hebben omdat hun gezin, werkgever, familie en vrienden hen de rug heeft toegekeerd?6) Je schreef al over de tekorten bij opsporing en rechtspraak i.r.t. kindermisbruikers, maar capaciteit daarvan zal worden verplaatst naar de opsporing van kijkers en delers.7) Er zijn straks heel veel *betrouwbare* mensen nodig die moeten gaan kijken of het om een valspositief of echtpositief gaat (veel details in <a href="https://security.nl/posting/797615" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://security.nl/posting/797615</a>). Mede omdat dit een afschuwelijke baan is (Dilan Yesilgöz wilde zo'n centrum in Den Haag als ik mij niet vergis), waar ga je die mensen vandaan halen?8) Naast dat mensen handmatig beeldmateriaal kunnen wijzigen, gebeurt dit ook automatisch (verlagen van de resolutie en/of de compressie meer "lossy" maken om de benodigde bandbreedte en opslagruimte tijdens verzending te beperken). Dat lijdt tot meer valsnegatieven - tenzij je de gevoeligheid verlaagt. Maar dát leidt tot *nóg méér* valspositieven.9) Sowieso is het opnieuw herkennen van video's veel lastiger dan van foto's; de tijd dat mensen genoegen namen met stilstaand beeld is allang voorbij.10) Met KCSAM-scanning spoor je geen daders op die via livestreams kinderen misbruiken (<a href="https://www.ijmnl.org/news/onderzoek-leidt-tot-gegevens-van-197-kopers-van-live-kindermisbruik" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://www.ijmnl.org/news/onderzoek-leidt-tot-gegevens-van-197-kopers-van-live-kindermisbruik</a>).11) Naarmate de database groeit neemt het aantal valspositieven toe. Kwaadwillenden kunnen die groei versnellen door bewust beelden zodanig te manipuleren dat zij nog net worden herkend, en die te verspreiden.12) Zodra het detectiealgoritme bekend is, kunnen kwaadwillenden detectie kan KCSAM eenvoudiger omzeilen, en zal de database nog harder groeien om ook de nu niet meer herkende CSAM te herkennen. Dat algoritme hou je onmogelijk lang geheim.13) Het is idioterie om élke chatapp een eigen database te laten gebruiken. Het ligt voor de hand om scanfunctionaliteit in het besturingssysteem te integreren om geheugenruimte en netwerkbandbreedte te besparen. Dat zet de deur verder open voor nieuwe soorten surveillance.14) Jongeren verspreiden ook seksueel getinte beelden van zichzelf of van hun partner. Zijn zij criminelen?15) Hoe gaan we (rechters) om met kijkers/delers van beelden die (deels) met AI zijn gegenereerd?16) Kijkers/delers kunnen Chatcontrol eenvoudig omzeilen, bijv. door beeldmateriaal versleuteld uit te wisselen en pas te decrypten en bekijken op een PC.17) Mensen kunnen worden verleid om toegezonden "lollige" beelden, waarvan kwaadwillenden weten dat ze tot valspositieven leiden, verder te verspreiden en hen zo in beeld laten komen bij de "checkers" (zie punt 7). Als je een keer "gevlagd" bent, word je dan onthouden (door een systeem)? Ook als dat onterecht was? Wat als de checker, bijv. t.g.v. vermoeidheid, valspositieven als positieven beoordeelt en dit optelt totdat je een grenswaarde overschrijdt?18) ChatControl is in potentie geschikt voor gezichtsherkenning van willekeurige mensen (<a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.11924" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://arxiv.org/abs/2306.11924</a>). De groep van Yves-Alexandre de Montjoye, waaronder destijds promovendus Ana-Maria Cretu, hebben veel onderzoek gedaan naar aanvullende risico's van ChatControl (<a href="https://cpg.doc.ic.ac.uk/team/yva/" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://cpg.doc.ic.ac.uk/team/yva/</a>).(*) KCSAM = Known Child (Sexual) Abuse Material. Dus *eerder* als zodanig herkend beeldmateriaal, waarvan een "perceptual hash" (<a href="https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX/issues/1#issuecomment-903094036" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX/issues/1#issuecomment-903094036</a> - met het risico op valspositieven) in een database is gezet. Nb. het gaat hierbij, per beeld, beslist *niet* om een cryptografische hash, maar effectief om een reeks getallen waarvan je kunt aangeven met hoeveel zij mogen afwijken (zie <a href="https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX/issues/1#issuecomment-903161868" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://github.com/AsuharietYgvar/AppleNeuralHash2ONNX/issues/1#issuecomment-903161868</a>).<a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatControl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ChatControl</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSS</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSAM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSAM</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/KinderPorno" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#KinderPorno</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/KinderMisbruik" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#KinderMisbruik</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Detectie" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Detectie</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ValsPositieven" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ValsPositieven</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ValsNegatieven" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ValsNegatieven</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/PerceptualHashes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PerceptualHashes</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CosineTransform" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CosineTransform</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ImageRecognition" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ImageRecognition</a>

Erik van StratenDutch news from yesterday (from <a href="https://rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5468858/cel-en-tbs-geeist-voor-onlinesekscontact-met-filipijnse-meisjes" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://rtl.nl/nieuws/artikel/5468858/cel-en-tbs-geeist-voor-onlinesekscontact-met-filipijnse-meisjes</a>): man convicted for interactive remote sexual abuse of children in the Philippines (via live streams).No technology (that I know of) exists that can reliably distinguish between such horrible live streams and streams that are *NOT* related to (sexual) abuse of children (I don't know how we might tackle this problem - apart from decreasing the poverty of parents seeing no other way).However, even trying tot detect *KNOWN* CSAM will inevitably lead to false positives. In fact, the implementors will have to choose a balance between: *LOTS* of false negatives {1} and *LOTS* of false positives {2}.{1} I.e. known CSAM with slight modifications, such as deliberate image cropping, all kinds of filters or automatic decrease of resolution in order to save network bandwidth and storage space.{2} Non-CSAM erroneously detected as known CSAM.That is just *one* of a large number of problems associated with "chatcontrol" (aka CSS = Client Side Scanning); see (in Dutch) <a href="https://infosec.exchange/@iceqbe/112649472369084536" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://infosec.exchange/@iceqbe/112649472369084536</a> and <a href="https://infosec.exchange/@ErikvanStraten/112651785660105464" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://infosec.exchange/@ErikvanStraten/112651785660105464</a>.IMO one if the biggest problems is that, at least in NL (even before CSS exists), the police, public prosecutors (Dutch: "Openbaar Ministerie") and courtrooms already have insufficient personnel to track down and prosecute people who actually (sexually) abuse children, or those who are complicit to such crimes.Although such monsters (who abuse children *themselves*), probably also watch, collect and possibly share CSAM, the opposite is likely rarily true. After all, not every violent porn watcher becomes a rapist, and not every player of violent games or watcher of violent movies becomes a murderer.So CSS will become a hunt in an attempt to arrest as many people as possible who watch and/or share CSAM. Regardless how disgusting one may find that, unfortunately part of the people in our societies *do* have weird fantasies and the desire to watch child pornography. Tracking them down implies:• It will decrease the number of officers who track down and persecute *actual* child abusers;• It will not help to find a single child who is actively being abused, because it's *known* CSAM that is being watched and/or shared;• Lots of (hopefully trustworthy) people are needed to manually determine whether detected images (or videos) actually *are* CSAM or false positives, are they available? How will such horrible jobs affect their wellbeing?• What to do with the CSAM sharers and/or watchers after arresting them? Will some jail time prevent them from watching/sharing CSAM ever again (in NL there's not even sufficient prison personnel to cope with the current numbed of criminals)? Is some kind of "cure" possible? Do we have the "docters" to "repair" them?• What is the effect on them if their partners, children and/or employers break all ties with them? Could that worsen their desires and behaviour - as they may feel that they have nothing to loose anyway?I'm afraid that CSS will become a counterproductive (CSS is easy to bypass anyway) witch hunt, that will not reduce the actual abuse of children - on the contrary.Apart from all the other disadvantages that I did not mention in this toot (such as youngsters sharing nude or sexually oriented images or videos, should they be treated as criminals?), CSS *will* be used for other, e.g. political, purposes.Even if this will NEVER apply to ANY of the European countries: by insisting on the implementation of CSS, less democratic countries will "benefit" from the technology to help them chase their opponents.<a href="https://someone.elses.computer/@xot" class="u-url mention" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">@xot</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSS" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSS</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/ChatControl" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#ChatControl</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/CSAM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSAM</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Children" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Children</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Abuse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Abuse</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/NeuralHashes" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#NeuralHashes</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Spyware" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Spyware</a> <a href="https://infosec.exchange/tags/Lobby" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Lobby</a>

Pierre-Yves BeaudouinSans transition, pédopornographie : Wikimedia Foundation est en train de déployer un système pour scanner automatiquement les contenus (c'est <a href="https://mamot.fr/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> de Microsoft qui est utilisé). <a href="https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T351200" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T351200</a>

ophiocephalic 🐍At this link, you can read the transcript, or listen to an audio recording, of an early August meeting attended by the Stanford operatives, a co-author of the ActivityPub standard, and a prominent fediverse developer, as they discuss their plans to impose centralized algorithmic surveillance onto the network.<a href="https://github.com/swicg/meetings/tree/main/2023-08-04" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://github.com/swicg/meetings/tree/main/2023-08-04</a>Here's more on one of the surveillance systems under consideration, a technology controlled by Microsoft, which detects and auto-reports both CSAM and political subversion: <a href="https://kolektiva.social/@ophiocephalic/110782738969976772" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://kolektiva.social/@ophiocephalic/110782738969976772</a>4/20<a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/FreeFediverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#FreeFediverse</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/FediPact" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#FediPact</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/DefederateMeta" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#DefederateMeta</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Meta" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Meta</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Facebook" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Facebook</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Threads" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Threads</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Prefiguration" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Prefiguration</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/DualPower" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#DualPower</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Fedifam" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Fedifam</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Communalism" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Communalism</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/FacebookFediverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#FacebookFediverse</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/Zuckerverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Zuckerverse</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/PhotoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#PhotoDNA</a> <a href="https://kolektiva.social/tags/FacebookMafia" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#FacebookMafia</a>

Benjamin Carr, Ph.D. 👨🏻‍💻🧬<a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/Mastodon" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Mastodon</a>'s decentralized social network has a major <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/CSAM" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#CSAM</a> problem The nature of the <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/Fediverse" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Fediverse</a> is causing <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/moderation" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#moderation</a> problems. <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/Stanford" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#Stanford</a> tesearcher David Thiel says, “We got more <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/photoDNA" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#photoDNA</a> hits in a two-day period than we’ve probably had in the entire history of our organization of doing any kind of <a href="https://hachyderm.io/tags/socialmedia" class="mention hashtag" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">#socialmedia</a> analysis, and it’s not even close.” <a href="https://www.engadget.com/mastodons-decentralized-social-network-has-a-major-csam-problem-202519000.html" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" translate="no" target="_blank">https://www.engadget.com/mastodons-decentralized-social-network-has-a-major-csam-problem-202519000.html</a>

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