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hot take: vim with arrows is actually great and hjkl is unnecessary cognitive overhead
@zeux agreed
@zeux especially because even 11 years in, I still regularly get confused which of j and k goes down and up
@StompyRobot @zeux it took me like 5 years to learn the button layout _of a PlayStation game pad_ without having to look at it all the time
@StompyRobot @zeux (but also, no, I never played nethack)
@zeux There are people who use hjkl instead of arrows??
@wolfpld @zeux you can also use the mouse, and it’s definitely convenient to have the option, but the whole point of modal editors for me is to move the hands as little as possible.
I have to stop and think which key is which movement, but it’s just muscle memory at this point.
The same way I don’t actively remember how to play specific notes on a instrument, or translate words one by one when speaking another language.
@javier_salcedo @zeux Vim keybindings have never really clicked for me, as I have to do text entry all over in places that are not Vim (a competent IDE, a program launcher, the terminal, any website really, a word processor, etc, etc). I see no point in constantly switching between the two navigation modes.
Go to next word? I have ctrl+right arrow for that, and it works everywhere.
Aha, but you can do 10w! Yeah, I'm not counting how many words are there. Must be cool for nerds though, I guess.
@javier_salcedo @zeux Moving the hand to arrows is not really that much different from hitting the escape.
Unless you have the Vim foot pedal. https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch
For Emacs a more complex control scheme is needed, but you can map ctrl, shift, alt to three foot pedals. https://github.com/foxweb/vim-pedal
While you're dismantling your car, you may also find an use for the gear shifter. https://github.com/tenderlove/initial-v
For more advanced use cases church organs may be needed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pedalboard-30.jpg
@wolfpld @javier_salcedo Vim users often remap Esc to something like Caps Lock fwiw. (I don't, I use Caps Lock to switch input layouts instead, but I also use arrow keys so ehh)
@zeux @wolfpld @javier_salcedo capslock is a useless key in a top tier location that should be rebound to something useful regardless :D
@zeux @wolfpld @javier_salcedo I do that, although "hilarity" ensues whenever I move to another computer where they haven't also remapped Caps Lock.
@zeux @wolfpld is guess it’s personal taste.
I’m noticeably faster at *editing* text.
For just moving around word by word it’s not that much different, but it starts getting faster when you use relative line numbers and the f and t motions.
And plugins like easymotion make you move way faster.
*A lot* of programs and IDEs have vim motions.
I don’t really use Vim itself that much. I mostly work with 10x and VS.
Also, I do have Caps Lock remapped to Escape 
@zeux like arrow keys? So far on the right? Away from home row keys?
@zeux
I guess you are used to arrow keys that (a) exist, and (b) work.Terminals used to be very different from each other.
hjkl is in my lower brain stem by now.
Also. I'm a touch typist. Gimme that home row speed.(Actually matters a lot.)
Much to my delight a lot of Google tools (used by Google engineers) have hjkl in their UI. Gmail and Gerrit, and our internal code review tool. They also have 'u' to pop out to a higher level. Cuts down a lot of loving my hands around
@zeux
To be honest I use a robust variety of ways of getting around text by line, word, section, matched paren-like things. VI and vim rock.
@dneto @zeux (On a meta level I still think using arrow keys is probably globally optimal when you consider inconsistencies and context switching across all use cases and applications. I lived in Emacs ~20 years ago and it was so uncomfortable and inefficient any time I had to use something with other conventions.)
@pervognsen @dneto @zeux As a fellow touch typist, I never understood why it's hjkl instead of jkl;
@nh @pervognsen @dneto @zeux
Because down is a far more common action than left. Why move a finger for the majority of your navigation?
Besides, vim has much more effective navigation keys within a line: w,e,f for moving to next word, end of next word, or next matching character.
Down doesn't have nearly as many keys (mostly / to search).
I think people greatly overemphasize the importance of hjkl.
@idbrii @pervognsen @dneto @zeux I don't understand what you're trying to say. With jkl;, you don't have to move a finger for *any* of the movement directions. With hjkl you do have to move your index finger to move left. So all else equal, hjkl is strictly inferior.
Sure. We have a strong path dependence by now.
May as well move away from QWERTY. :-)
Maybe someone should ask Bill Joy why (presuming the convention started in vi)
Oh. I wonder if it is H because crtl-H is the backspace. Makes so much sense.
(Yes, I have used keyboards without a backspace key and had to remember Ctrl codes like this. Starting with orphaned 70s equipment in my 80s high school days)
And ctrl-j is line feed. So that lines up too
@dneto @idbrii @pervognsen @zeux That's a really good observation! What an unfortunate accident of history.
I wonder if ctrl-j being line feed is because of a keyboard or vice versa? I always thought the keyboard came first.
I actually used an ADM-3A !!
@dneto
Cool! Did you use vim on it?
@idbrii
No. This was in high school, around 1986. It was hooked up to the school board's mainframe downtown. I played a Star Trek turn based game.
I learned vi in university, January 1988.
@nh @pervognsen @dneto @zeux
Oops, I meant use a less dominant finger.
Finding j is easy when you first sit thanks to the home row bump. Using my most dominant finger is easy. When I tap tap tap to slowly scroll a document, I'm likely to use my pointer finger whether it's on mouse, arrow, or j.
I probably use ; more than h so hjkl makes more sense for me. But like I said, vim has far better movement options.
@pervognsen @dneto I touch type but without using all ten fingers or placing them on home row or whatever, which is maybe why hjkl feel like nonsense. Fingers crossed for no RSI.
@pervognsen @zeux @dneto that seems like a much more sane resting position not going to lie...
@pervognsen @zeux @dneto yeah I happen to be typing now on my laptop's tiny keyboard as well, so posture and hand position wise it feels good to straighten out, even if only a little.
@dotstdy @pervognsen @zeux @dneto I don't even know where my fingers lie at rest. I can start typing from any position.
@zeux but my arrow keys are hjkl (on another layer)
@zeux I think I only moved away from arrow keys after using laptop as daily driver, the frustration of sometimes hitting page up/down when reaching for the arrow keys made me switch
@zeux I’d say it’s fine to use arrow keys considering the original hjkl were arrow keys https://catonmat.net/why-vim-uses-hjkl-as-arrow-keys